The Fight for Ethnic Studies in NYC Schools
Bernie Carmona and Isabella Mason explore how ethnic studies is evolving in NYC schools in another era of Trump. Photo by Carolina Hidalgo.
Welcome to Season 2 of P.S. Weekly!
Episode 1 dives into the state of ethnic studies in New York City schools and how the Trump administration could threaten the recent expansion of Black studies, LGBTQ history, and other diverse curriculums in schools across the five boroughs.
Producers Bernie Carmona Pereda, from Beacon High School, and Isabella Mason, from Midwood High School, discuss the critical role of ethnic studies courses — and their uncertain future.
Hear from Marame Diop, a sophomore at Yale who created an ethnic studies course while a student at Beacon High School, which gave her peers an alternative to typical history classes that focus too much “on some old, white, dead guy.”
And Chalkbeat reporter Julian Shen-Berro explains how federal pressures could lead to potential self-censorship in the classroom, raising concerns about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives in the nation’s largest school system.
P.S. Weekly is available on major podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Reach us at PSWeekly@chalkbeat.org.
P.S. Weekly is a collaboration between Chalkbeat and The Bell, made possible by generous support from The Pinkerton Foundation.
Listen for new P.S. Weekly episodes Thursdays this spring.
Read transcription below:
Bernie: Welcome back to PS weekly, the sound of the New York City school system. I'm Bernie Carmona.
Isabella: I'm Isabella Mason.
Bernie: New York City is home to about 1 million public school students, making it the largest student population in the country.
Isabella: But, New York City is also among the most segregated school systems in the nation, and that's in a city filled with students from every corner of the world.
Bernie: And then there's a current political climate. Today, Isabella and I will discuss the state of ethnic studies in New York City schools, and how recent political debates are shaping those conversations. So Isabella, you've had some experience with ethnic studies yourself. Can you tell me what that's like?
Isabella: It’s been a really great experience taking this class now in my senior year of high school. So not only does AP African American studies allow me to see different parts of American history that haven't been taught in your regular US history class, but it also teaches the contributions and impact African Americans have had on American art, literature and music and activism. An example being the Black Panther Party and their contributions in the black campus movement and actually establishing the first ethnic studies college in America.
Bernie: Right! That's so interesting. The first ethnic studies college in the United States, that's actually something we learned a lot about in our ethnic studies class.
Isabella: Yeah, it's really important to know where these classes come from, because without the Black Panther Party and the black campus movement, we wouldn't have ethnic studies today.
Isabella: This actually makes me wonder, what other voices and histories we aren't hearing recently, ethnic studies programs have faced significant opposition in states like Florida, Arizona and California, even right here in New York, where ethnic studies has seen some growth, there are concerns about how political pressure could impact future progress.
Bernie: Well, let's backtrack to before the political pressures on DEI curriculums were even as intense as they are now. Back in 2020, Marame Diop was at Beacon High School.
Marame: It was sophomore year, and I was in Miss Rubin's. I think it was world history, right? That's what you take sophomore year. It was during COVID, and the assignment was something about like, if you had to create your own class, what would it be?
Bernie: Marame’s answer was an ethnic studies class. Her teacher loved the idea, and got their principal on board.
Marame: She was like, oh, like, she really was inspired by what I wrote in my project. Because she was like, you know, in high-in college, I studied ethnic studies, and like, what you said and how, like, you want to teach history, kind of models that same pedagogies of like, CRT, critical race theory. And so she was like, you know, I could really help you, you know, create your vision, you know, make it come to life.
Marame: And I was just so excited, because I feel like, when you create a project or you submit something in a history class, it's like, it's like, oh, it's just like a dream. It's like a fantasy. It's like, it never really comes to consideration. But having a teacher that actually, like, believed in you and, like, believed in your project and wanted to see it through was, like, really inspiring. Because obviously it's a big project, and it took my full junior year. It was just really all hands on deck, and just, you know, after school meetings, meetings, literally almost every single day. And also just have so many other students who resonate with the class and actually, like, appreciate their histories being taught in the class rather than just sitting through a boring, 50 minute lecture on some old white, dead guy, if you know what I mean.
Bernie: Marame is now a sophomore at Yale University, connecting her interest in sociology to the foundation of Ethnic Studies. And actually, I now co-facilitate the same class she originally created at Beacon high school, but I wanted to understand how her interest in ethnic studies began.
Bernie: Can you just describe what a typical history class that beacon looked like for you?
Marame: Yeah
Bernie: So what classes were available, and what would you describe that as?
Marame: Freshmen and sophomore year, I think we just took, like, the regular core curriculum classes. So it was like world history, I think, and then US history, I know, was 11th grade. Yeah, I feel like past history classes that beacon, it was like, cool, but I feel like ethnic studies did more than what the core like, the common curriculum like offered.
Isabella: Wait Bernie, what is this course?
Bernie: So the course at Beacon High School is basically centered around the impacts of racial injustices. And at Beacon High School, specifically, the class is made up of two units. In the first unit, we mainly center around community building, in the sense that we have discussions about our cultural and or racial identities. We usually start the class off in a circle and end in a circle, and at the end of that unit, students do a podcasting project where their paired up with a random student of the class, and they're required to create an hour long podcast about their cultural identities.
Isabella: That's super cool. Wait, that's actually really cool.
Bernie: And then we have unit two, which is mostly centered around learning about those actual racial injustices. Units who consist of mostly learning about case studies. Case studies, watching documentaries about the history of racial injustice and the creation of Ethnic Studies, and basically learning about student activism, where we can eventually create a final project, which is an advocacy letter or an op ed newspaper, to any news source that you would like to send it to.
Isabella: That is so cool. I wish my school had that.
Bernie: Yeah, it's really fun. We have a lot of students come back the next year saying we missed this class and we want to be back.
Bernie: Do you think that the course should be mandatory for all students in New York City?
Marame: Absolutely, absolutely, I think it should replace one of our history courses. Definitely because, because I just know so many students are just lacking in education, and they're just carrying on these biases throughout the world. And when they get into positions of power, what do they do? They abuse it. They don't understand why BI is necessary. They don't understand that the structures that racism isn't just a social contract, it's, it's in systems that perpetuate such harmful inequalities and negativities. And if they don't understand how these, how these structures are still in place today, what can they do in their position of power to change the world? Look at our administration right now. Trump went through the entire catalog. He recalled it documents that had the word gay in it because of DEI like because he wants to get rid of DEI. I think that is absolutely insane when we let people like that who don't understand the structures and the true history of this country, and it's just so heartbreaking.
Bernie: That was Marame Diop, a former student at Beacon High School and a current sophomore at Yale. What started as an idea turned into a course that reshaped how students learn about US history, but also how we learn about ourselves. Her story reminds co facilitators like me to do more than just check boxes and read slides off a screen, but actually discuss the voices of students that built and continue carrying its legacy forward.
Isabella: But it's exactly courses like these that are at risk across the country. Nearly 800 high schools across 40 states teach AP, African American Studies, another ethnic studies course created by the College Board, and those are the courses the Trump administration considers divisive.
News Reporter: Well, the topics in question, according to the president, are race, sex, gender and politics. He's ordered the Secretary of Education to create a strategy within 90 days to stop these teachings in the classroom.
Isabella: Coming up, we'll talk with Trump B reporter Julian Shen Barrow about the broader political challenges facing ethnic studies. That's after the break.
Amy: Hey listeners, it's Amy Zimmer with Chalkbeat New York. We hope you're enjoying this season's first episode of PS weekly, and we've got an assignment for you. Follow us on Instagram @ Bell voices. Please tell your friends about us. Share it with your teachers. We'd love for social studies, civics and advisory teachers across the city to bring PS weekly into your classrooms. And we want to hear from you. Email us at PS weekly@chalkbeat.org,
Bernie: Welcome back to PS weekly, and Isabella and I are discussing the ethnic studies curriculums.
Isablella: Yeah! Bernie and I were discussing how important ethnic studies was to us, and I mean, we would like to see ethnic studies be a mandatory part of curriculum in New York City high schools, but it's those classes that the federal administration is trying to get rid of. So we spoke with Chalkbeat reporter, Julian Chan Barrow, about how likely it is that the classes we value will be taken away.
Julian: Yeah, I'm a reporter at Chalkbeat, so I cover New York City News, New York City schools, K-12 education, and mostly the public school system.
Isabella: Okay so, before this current administration, how would you characterize the state of ethnic studies within the New York City School System?
Julian: Yeah, I think there are a lot of different efforts, kind of ongoing to try to improve that, from educators, from elected officials. We've seen there's a Black Studies curriculum K through 12 that rolled out in New York City in recent years. I believe it's in about 200 schools now. And you know, there is the hidden voices curriculum that the city's education department developed to try to uplift stories from marginalized communities that you know might be overlooked in other curriculums.
Julian: I think there are, you know, elements of this that don't always reach every student. You know, something like hidden voices was designed so that teachers could, you know, choose to bring parts of it into the classroom. It's not like a course itself, but it's offering materials to educators to try to bring them in. So obviously, that requires the teacher to go out, you know, seek it out, and to bring it into their classroom. The Black Studies curriculum, you know, is optional for schools they don't have to teach it. And so again, not every school is going to have access to that. And so I have encountered students who feel like they haven't seen themselves represented in the curriculum. And that does continue to be an issue, you know, here and everywhere, but there are strides that are being taken, and there's, there's a clear goal of trying to improve that issue here.
Bernie: So I've known you've covered the DEI policies in New York City recently. So how has that knowledge really guided you throughout this process and writing the story?
Julian: Yeah, I think obviously the kind of the use of the term DEI and diversity, equity and inclusion, has sort of been, become very politicized. But I think, you know, we've seen from you know, various people here in New York City that they've been kind of affirming their commitment to diversity in classrooms and in other spaces. You know, the Attorney General put out guidance recently, sort of pushing back on what the federal government has been, you know, vocally saying about, you know, possible action they'll take if schools or other institutions are changing their you know, are continuing to use policies that they see as sort of DEI. You know, my understanding there has been traditionally that, that term has more been about kind of hiring practices. Has been about, you know, thinking about like teacher workforce in the schools, and less about the curriculums. But it does seem to be kind of expanding and broadening to encompass more and more.
Isabella: Okay, to go off of that question I read in your article, Trump can't ban DEI in schools. ‘New York Attorney General affirms in new guidance that the Attorney General stands ready to enforce their state's robust civil rights protections and in which, which, in many cases, exceed federal civil rights protections wherever discrimination may be found’. So can you speak a little bit more on this and what, and how New York City public schools are protected from the whims of the presidential politics.
Julian: Right, I think some of the concern there was that they were going to go after schools that might have, for example, a program that you know is focused on college and career readiness for students of color, or something like that, where, you know, particularly highlighting certain student groups that might have faced historical challenges, and like trying to, you know, better, their outcomes in the education system. That's something that the Trump administration has maybe would see as kind of DEI and go after. And so what the Attorney General was saying is, you know, those practices remain legal, and you know, Schools shouldn't shy away from continuing to do them. So that's, that's kind of one part of answering that question.
Julian: And I think the other element of this is that, you know, the federal government doesn't have authority to dictate what is taught in the classroom. States do decide sort of the learning standards for their states, the requirements for what's taught in the schools. And so that isn't an authority that the federal government has directly, but what they do have is a lot of funding that goes to New York City schools and other schools here in the state. And so I believe it's about $2.2 billion in the education department budget, which is coming from the federal government. It's about 5% so it's not, you know, the main source of funding by any means. Again, there are debates there. If he has that power, you know, Congress is supposed to be the one with, with power over the purse, but we have to kind of see how all this is going to play out in the court system. So there are some unknowns there.
Isabella: Okay, how much of this concern do you think is realistic or warranted?
Julian: I mean, these kinds of things are not new, right? These, you know, we've seen attacks on like the LGBTQ community. We've seen efforts to restrict how, you know, racism is taught in history classes and in other spaces, you know, going back years now. And so I think the concerns I've heard from people who work in these spaces is sort of twofold, one that people who are already sort of have been making these attacks on certain populations are going to feel emboldened to continue to do that. I think the other element that I've heard some concern about is whether we could see some kind of self censorship if people are kind of going to comply in advance with some of these things out of fear of facing some kind of backlash.
Isabella: Have you seen any real life impacts of Trump's initiatives against DEI as a journalist?
Julian: Yeah, I think we're seeing definitely changes in the way that people are willing to, like publicly talk about some of these things. For example, we saw in the city council they postponed a hearing that they had planned to talk to the city's Education Department about its efforts to reduce segregation in the school system. They postponed that hearing out of concerns about whether it could open the school system up to some kind of targeting by the Trump administration. I think we've also seen organizations make smaller changes sort of publicly. You know, I've heard of organizations that have changed their name to remove kind of references to, you know, certain communities or groups that the Trump administration has targeted with these executive orders out of fear, again, of like drawing that kind of public eye and then drawing backlash. I think, from what I've been hearing so far, people are still trying to make sure that the work they're doing internally stays the same, that they're still giving kids the same access to these kind of resources that they've been providing in communities. But we have to see just, you know, just how far the administration is willing to go in terms of trying to enforce some of these executive orders here in New York City, and we'll see if there's kind of any continued fallout.
Bernie: Yeah, that's really scary, like the fact that they postponed that simply just to not put a spotlight on it. I think it's really insane. So in the end, what do you think the future holds?
Julian: I think it's worth noting. You know, even before Trump's election, and you know, even before any of these recent executive orders, there have been pushes, you know, at Beacon and other places to increase the amount of access students have to ethnic studies. I know at the state level, there's been an effort to create a curriculum for Asian, American Pacific Islander history. There have been various efforts ongoing for years to try to increase access to diverse curriculums in schools, and those have borne out some benefits and some kind of concrete changes as a result. But in other ways, it's still kind of a work in progress. And so I think that regardless of what happens with the Trump administration, you know, students are going to continue advocating for these curriculums because they're things that they've expressed they want in the classroom. And you know, lawmakers or education officials who care about these issues are probably going to continue to advocate for them as well. So we might see, you know, more divisive rhetoric around this. We might see the Trump administration trying to tamp down on some of these efforts, but you know, I would be surprised if New York City students and educators didn't continue to advocate for them, just based on the conversations I've had, and you know what I've seen from students and educators here.
Bernie: Thank you, Julian,
Julian: Yeah, yeah, of course
Isabella: That was Julian chan Barrow, a chalk beat reporter, and you've been listening to the first episode of season two of PS weekly.
Bernie: PS weekly is a collaboration between the Bell and Chalk Beat made possible by generous support from the Pinkerton Foundation, the Summerfield foundation and FJC.
Isabella: Producers for this episode were me Isabella Mason,
Bernie: And me Bernie Carmona, with reporting help from chocolate reporter, Julian Shen Baro
Isabella: Our executive producer for the show is Ave Carillo, and executive editors are Amy Zimmer and Taylor McGraw.
Bernie: Additional production and reporting support was provided by Mira Gordon, Sabrina DuQuesnay and our friends at Chalkbeat. Our engagement editor is Carolina Hidalgo.
Isabella: This episode was made using Hindenburg Pro. Music is from Blue Dot sessions, and the jingle you heard at the beginning of this episode was created by the one and only Erica Huang.
Bernie: Thanks for tuning in! See you next time.
